Curse

leeky baby · Dec 27, 2006, 12:45 AM // 00:45

looks like there will be a 'major update' in mid january for PVP so i will wait to see if this is changed or im leaving....just not fun as 6v6

Tiyuri · Dec 27, 2006, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeky baby

looks like there will be a 'major update' in mid january for PVP so i will wait to see if this is changed or im leaving....just not fun as 6v6

If it's not done with the update, I doubt it'll ever be done. So I'll be leaving too I guess.

tomcruisejr · Dec 27, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

If it's not done with the update, I doubt it'll ever be done. So I'll be leaving too I guess.

i hate 8vs8. if they revert to 8vs8 HA after "the" update, I won't leave. If I wanna play HA, I'll just join 8 man groups. We all know that WoW sucks so it's a no brainer.

I won't ever quit GW and play WoW.

Zui · Dec 27, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

Zui, What do you have against spike? Its a valid form of play, just like balanced, some balanced builds even spike to get kills, or even though I hate to admit it, IWAY, which is simply a version of extreme warrior pressure.

The only thing I have against gimmick caster spikes is they require very little skill to run(aside from one person), and they're a classic example of build > skill. Teams that have the tools to beat them, and don't entirely suck, almost always beat them. Teams that don't have the tools to beat them, usualy loose. As long as the caller for the spike is descent, it wouldn't matter if the rest of the players were simply trained monkeys who only press t+1+2 when the caller counts down to 1.

Balanced builds can also pressure, and shut things down, plus spiking with them requries alot more coordination and skill than simply hitting t+1+2 when the caller tells you to do so.

Basicly spikes win one way, and only when the opposition doesn't have the tools to beat you. It also only requires only one person to be skilled. Balanced can win many ways, and the entire team needs to be skilled to run it. Balanced also isn't as easy to just counter; you have to outplay it to win most of the time, not just bring X amount of Y skilltype(Interrupts, for example).

With that said, I have nothing against players who run spike in Hereos' Ascent. The gametype rewards bringing as much defense/utility as you can, and bring just barely enough damage to kill. Many times even going so far as to only bring enough offense to get kills against bad teams, so you can pack more defense/utility to hold longer if you actualy manage to cap. Infact, I'll admit to running my share of highly defensive spikes/holding builds.

I just find balanced play alot more interesting, and would like to see it promoted over builds that only have one aspect to them. Alot of people seem to complain about 6 vs 6 because it limits build options; Spike does the same thing, because you have to bring the right skills to make sure you beat it. Hi, SoMW spike? Hope you have an Avatar of Grenth in there, or another very powerful enchantment remover, in addition to enough interrupts to get Song of Concentration and a Signet of Mystic Wrath or two... Missing one? You loose, or don't win, depending on which one it is and what Heroes' Ascent map you're on. Two balanced builds facing eachother should have skill be the deciding factor(almost all of the time, anyway). Not skills.

Just my opinion. This thread is about improving Heroes' Ascent, so I'd rather not have it derailed into the Blood Spike versus IWAY versus Balanced mess that so many promising threads in the Heroes' Ascent section turn into. So, I would encourage anyone who feels the absolutly must reply to this to just PM me, or start another thread as an offshoot of this one. This thread has been closed, and re-opened far too many times already, I'd rather not see that happen again.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeky baby

looks like there will be a 'major update' in mid january for PVP so i will wait to see if this is changed or im leaving....just not fun as 6v6

There's no way they'll change it back to 8v8 that soon. Hell, I bet anet (besides Gaile) hasn't even heard us say we want 8v8 back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

i hate 8vs8. if they revert to 8vs8 HA after "the" update, I won't leave. If I wanna play HA, I'll just join 8 man groups. We all know that WoW sucks so it's a no brainer.

I won't ever quit GW and play WoW.

WoW doesn't suck...

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

They might change it back to 8v8 in January, might as well get all the PvP and other updates out at once.... right? In terms of technical issues, it shouldn't be that hard to REvert as it once was that way and it should be a simple loading procedure assuming they stored burial mounds and stuff somewhere. If they're revamping GvG that drastically, theres no reason they can't put HA back to 8v8 [or at least get a poll, official announcement, or SOME sort of change (nerf spirit spam anyone?) out to HA].

leeky baby · Dec 27, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

[QUOTE=Bacon Goes Monk]There's no way they'll change it back to 8v8 that soon. Hell, I bet anet (besides Gaile) hasn't even heard us say we want 8v8 back...

People have wanted 8v8 bk the 2nd it changed..so they have had ages!!!

[QUOTE=WoW doesn't suck...[/QUOTE]

It does :P i quit at level 7

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeky baby

It does :P i quit at level 7

Well... it sucks until you get to about 20... guess I should have put that in.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 27, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

There's no way they'll change it back to 8v8 that soon. Hell, I bet anet (besides Gaile) hasn't even heard us say we want 8v8 back...

Lol, their probably still patting themselves on the back about the postitive comments they recieved from the Guild-Hall.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

They probably thought "ZOMG we had such a turnout from this 6v6 weekend that EVERYONE must love 6v6, QUICK CHANGE IT AND INCREASE SALES!!!" If they had an 8v8 double fame weekend, hell, a 8v8 regular fame weekend, it would blow the 6v6 weekend out of the water.

RazielFirestorm · Dec 27, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

i think most ppl have said about:

8v8 bring it back, i found it more fun and we never had the chance to play with 3 chapters worth of skills in HA 8v8. at the moment there isnt enough flexibilty with skilsl to take ( mainly because of the objectives and map types at the moment).

so also map changes please, its been over 18 months and no real map changes like TA/RA and GvG had.

also this may not apply to HA only but i would like those balth flames back, they were really useful for unlocking skills instead of having to go top up faction somewhere. and also they would make a little bit of money for us poor pvpers with max faction and nothing to do with it, especially now sigil prices are down the toilet. maybe not the exact same setup say you can convert 2000 or 3000 faction into 1 balth flame (1000 faction) to sell or give to friends etc.

lastly a suggestion for a new map type or environment, if you added some environmental features such as lava, spores or even those splinter mines things that teams could use as extra dmg against eachother. i think some features like this are already present in TA/RA and GvG maps so why not make maps for HA where you can use parts of the environment aswell. for example if you can pick up an item and when you drop it it will explode or kd everything in the area, or items that will cause conditions like poison to everything in the area including the person holding it. just stuff that can be utilised but isnt going to out right win you matches, i think it would provide for more player skill if you had to think about environment aswell and you could use certain aspects to help you beat things you otherwise would not be able to.

Winstar · Dec 27, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

1) 8v8 - Greater flexibility and allows balanced play.

2) New maps with possibly some new objectives. Something that would introduce more choices tactically, i.e. make splitting worthwhile for example. You could have some main goal (cap the alter or something) with other subgoals that could help you achieve that main goal. Some crazy ideas...(a) health shrine, (b) something that while you control it gives the enemy ghostly hero health degeneration (c) there is a negative environmental effect on the map that can be turned off for your team if you control a flag or something. This sounds a bit like HvH...but the HvH maps themselves aren't terrible with some modifications and all real having people playing on something like them might be fun. Its the bloody heros. Anyway just some ideas.

(3) DON'T rollback fame. I'm a midling ranked HA'er so I wouldn't be terribly effected by a rollback (it would be annoying), however a lot of people would be. Even for those who grinded their way to a high rank, there is still something learned. They generally got to know maps and objectives and are generally aware of the meta-game. For those who didn't grind and really earned it, its huge blow. The new party formation should help groups form and help people get exp. To aid new players who don't know whats going on at all in HA is there anyway to have an npc who politely suggests they go read some external websites for to learn the ins and outs and builds

. Really, its helpful to have something to discriminate in the formation of teams since much of HA is very pug oriented unlike GvG.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

I don't know why you mentioned rolling back fame, reverting to 8v8 and rolling back fame would make even more people quit. Also, if you add environmental effects and increased map dynamics such as flags for morale boosts, etc., you are essentially turning HA into a version of GvG. Not that increasing map dynamics would be a bad thing, it would just change the overall feel of it drastically.

Lorekeeper · Dec 27, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

i think for me to add ideas on what i think needs to be changed about HA i need to think about what it is about HA currently that stops me from playing it.

Its the demise of the balance build.

HA currently revolves around the highly defensive holding builds... caused by the demise of the balanced builds which were the bane of these sorts of builds. These defensive builds thrive on altar maps and their continual success in HOH necessitates the creation of highly offensive builds which are the only kinds of builds apart from balanced builds that average players can run in order to have any hope in knocking the defensive builds off the altar.
Or you could say that offensive builds came first because the balanced builds couldnt counter all the dmg... and then defensive builds arose to counter the high damage meta.

But i believe that if the progressive difficulty and variability of the map rotation was working properly... teams would not find much success running builds which were focused in this way.

Just take a look at the most common holding build atm... the one with all the spirits and necro/monks relying on soul reaping for nrg management.

This build shouldnt enjoy much success on relic maps. Its reliance on fighting in battles with very little movement makes it very WEAK on maps which require high mobility like relic maps. They camp an area and basically make it a no go zone for enemy teams. But the second they try to split up and fight a running battle... things go wrong for them as long as the enemy team can take advantage of their lack of mobility. Its the same reason why builds that rely on spirits are not run in GvG. They tie you down to a specific area and require a certain amount of preparation before they reach optimum effectiveness.

but because of the skipping of maps that occurs in HA... these teams can sometimes bypass the maps they are weak on, making it less of a risk running these sorts of builds

Furthermore... there arent any builds being run which are able to take advantage of these weaknesses. Especially since the demise of the balanced build (which usually contained enough utility to thrash static builds on relic runs or a variety of other weaknesses like a reliance on bonds or on spikes or on spirits).

How common is it that ALL three teams competing in HOH have had to fight through EVERY single map in rotation? i dont have any statistics but i wouldnt be suprised if all 3 teams had skipped at least 1 map. Even if you tell me that most teams do actually fight through all the maps... its probably because they faced their ideal opponents through the maps...like a defensive build facing 2 other defensive builds on a relic map and managing to cap first... or an offensive build which faces a defensive build on an annihilation map. Its just buildwars. Without the balance build... noone has to fear being beaten on relic maps by a highly mobile and coordinated team anymore... noone has to fear its spirit spammers being shutdown on altar maps anymore. There is no utility in HA!

In order for HA fotm to become more diverse. It has to force people to create builds which can compete on every possible map in the rotation, the system must not allow for skips.

So basically... every team wishing to be successful will HAVE to think about what maps they expect to fight on... which is ALL of them.

builds must include the offense to win annihilation battles.
builds must include speedbuffs+snares+bodyblocking experience to win relic runs.
builds must include defense in order to hold an altar against more than 1 team for a modest amount of time.
builds must include interrupts to prevent enemy teams from capping.

(its not a coincidence that ive actually ended up explaining why there are no more balanced builds in HA anymore --- just look at the list above and tell me you can include all of these abilities in a 6man team)

the more i read over my comments on how skipping promotes holding builds... the less i believe getting rid of skips is going to change anything for the following reason:

In theory forcing teams to play through all the maps should promote them to run more flexible builds.
but in practice... we only have 6 skillbars available to us, which makes running this amount of flexibility impossible.

so i guess ive just written a rather long argument asking for 8vs8 to be reinstated which is something ive tried to avoid quite strongly up to now (oops) simply because those who enjoy 6vs6 have just as much right to support their preferences over those who enjoy 8vs8. However unlike most posters i would like to see both modes in the game.

More options = win

conclusion

1) bring back 8vs8 HA (see what happens to the HA meta inspired by NF)

2) create a completely new 6vs6 arena (for those who dont have time to invest in forming 8 man teams)

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winstar

(3) DON'T rollback fame. I'm a midling ranked HA'er so I wouldn't be terribly effected by a rollback (it would be annoying), however a lot of people would be. Even for those who grinded their way to a high rank, there is still something learned. They generally got to know maps and objectives and are generally aware of the meta-game. For those who didn't grind and really earned it, its huge blow. The new party formation should help groups form and help people get exp. To aid new players who don't know whats going on at all in HA is there anyway to have an npc who politely suggests they go read some external websites for to learn the ins and outs and builds

. Really, its helpful to have something to discriminate in the formation of teams since much of HA is very pug oriented unlike GvG.

If they rollback fame I'd quit even with 8v8 back... getting a tiger just from playing sb/infuse wasn't too easy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

How common is it that ALL three teams competing in HOH have had to fight through EVERY single map in rotation?

I haven't gotten to halls without skipping since 8v8. Hooray for a 4 fame halls win...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

1) bring back 8vs8 HA (see what happens to the HA meta inspired by NF)

2) create a completely new 6vs6 arena (for those who dont have time to invest in forming 8 man teams)

And make HA even more empty? LFG system > two seperate arenas.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Creating two separate arenas is not an option.

lutz · Dec 27, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

longest fight that i experienced was close to 22 minutes. the other team was like offering to /roll. but we figured out that were hitting the wrong targets. after we patched that, hit the right targets and little did we know we won and got 2 fame. that was in scarred earth.

And yes, my entire team is in tact.

8v8 PLEASE
These 6v6 builds simply encourage holding, and these holding builds are entirely retarded - they deviate from the main point of the game which is to have fun. How the heck do you expect to have fun with 2 teams unable to kill each other? Sure, you could not use these holding builds, but then you just get destroyed one way or another. Basically, with 6v6 you have a choice of: Holding or Spike. With 8v8, there's much, much more variety. You can incorporate 3, even 4 synergies in your build, where in 6v6 you're lucky to have 2 synergies.

tomcruisejr · Dec 27, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

And yes, my entire team is in tact.

that wont ever happen if they implement some kind of VoD when matches are past 10 - 15 minute mark.

HA "Victory or Death" (for Annihilation Maps) - Skill - Everyone cannot be healed and all healing skills are converted to self or party inflicted damage.

fast paced matches is key.

and if you recall, when GvGs have no Victory or Death, matches can last for hours too. so we need time limiting mechanisms for maps that will prevent boring and time consuming matches to happen (also known as tailoring the maps for 6vs6).

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Actually, I'm going to have to agree with tomcruise there, a VoD effect would be AWESOME. 10 Minutes is a bit too early on though IMO.

Bacon Goes Monk · Dec 27, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Even though you were running some 2 paragon nubtrash crap, you have my respect for winning a 72 minute match. And if that screenshot was recent, you can probably drop mantra of flame now.

8v8 please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

HA "Victory or Death" (for Annihilation Maps) - Skill - Everyone cannot be healed and all healing skills are converted to self or party inflicted damage.

Isn't that a bit extreme? So whoever conserves all their adrenaline and energy before the VoD wins? Doesn't sound too fair to me.